tv Anderson Cooper 360 CNN June 14, 2012 1:00am-2:00am PDT
>> i wanted to talk to mr. yost, but there's one slight problem. he's currently in jail for public intoxication. so freedom and his fortune awaits. you've had a great stroke of luck, make the most of it. a home and get the help he needs. you've had a great stroke of luck, make the most of it. we begin tonight with breaking news. new doping allegations against lance armstrong surfacing once again. the anti-doping agency is investigating armstrong in what he calls a vendetta against him. as he has all along, armstrong is denying ever using performance enhancing drugs. says he's passed more than 500 drug tests over the year and never failed even one.
the investigation has already had consequences for his career now as an athlete. he's immediately banned from competing in triathlons which he's taken up since retiring from professional bike cycling. . he said i have been notified usada intends to dredge up discredited allegations dating back more than 16 years to prevent me from competing as a triathlete and try to strip me of the seven tour de france victories i earned. these are the same charges and same witnesses the justice department chose not to pursue after a two-year investigation. these charges are baseless, motivated by spite and advanced through testimony bought for and paid for by promises of joining me now is new york sports reporter. lance armstrong has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs before, but the doping agency said they collected blood samples in 2009 and 2010 that were, quote, fully consistent
with blood manipulation, including epo or blood transfusions. what do you make of that? >> caller: first of all, i don't think saying you've never tested positive as an athlete really means anything. we've heard that with marianne jones. the five-time gold medallist or however many gold medals she won. she never tested positive and as it turned out, she was part of a systematic doping scheme. so that being said, i think the united states anti-doping agency is bringing charges that include more than just these weird blood levels that came up in 1999 or was it 2010 or something? it has more to do with doping conspiracy on the past teams that he used to ride for. and i guess multiple witnesses on each team, including multiple riders that said armstrong not only doped but encouraged doping
and administered doping the times. so it's more than that he didn't test positive, which he didn't. it was more of an analytical way of saying he cheated. >> and this is a conspiracy that went on from 1996 through his entire career of some 14 or so years. talk a little bit about the u.s. antidoping agency and its powers what it can and cannot do. because it's different -- before it was the department of justice, which was bringing charges. they dropped all those charges and they're not pursuing it. the bar is lower for this doping agency. >> exactly. it's much lower. the u.s. anti-doping agency gets money from the government, but has its own rules and could really bring charge against anyone it wants or sanction anyone it wants. based on the evidence it collects. the bar is much lower. as we know, the two-year long investigation of armstrong didn't go anywhere. but all that information and all those people that stepped forward during this
investigation i guess went right to usada's door and they have all this information that they're using against armstrong. and some of his former colleagues. >> in recent past, armstrong recently said basically he wouldn't fight the allegations. he said i'm done. you can interpret that however you want. i'm finished, i'm done fighting. i moved on. do you think he's going to fight this? >> well, yeah, i read that, too, in "men's journal" and i thought, i'm not sure that's going to happen. we've seen lance armstrong deal with these doping allegations for more than a decade now and each time he's fought them to the end. each time they've gone away and he's won. there's no reason for him to back down now. although his lawyer said they're going to look at the evidence that usada has against him and determine whether it's going to be a fair fight and i guess that
might be a way of saying they might go forward with it or they might not. but my guess is that it will go forward and he'll fight it to the end. but, you know, it could be a new lance armstrong. >> and if they find him guilty on this, this is not legal charges but they could strip him of those tour de france titles and even the investigation prevents him of competing in triathlons, which we're seeing him compete in right now. >> yeah, if the charges are upheld, heel lose his seven tour titles and whatever titles he gained during that time. it also -- the usada case doesn't ban him from triathlons. it's triathlons own rules that say any athlete under a doping investigation cannot compete. so that's not usada's fault. that's triathlon's fault that he won't be able to compete in france later this month and also in the ironman world championship in october.
>> what do you think the ramifications of this are for his cancer charity. he's so well respected in that realm. if he is found guilty of this, what happens? >> personally, i don't think anything will happen. if he survives an investigation that lasted two years with accusations back and forth and teammates going on tv saying that he encouraged doping and was sort of a ring leader of the doping on some of his teams, i guess his cancer foundation survived through that people looked through inspiration. i don't think it changes anything. i think if he's an inspiration to someone now, he'll be an inspiration to someone even if usada does find him guilty of doping. >> how long will this take? >> officially, it should take ten days before armstrong's lawyers respond to usada and,
best case scenario, in some of these cases like with floyd landis or tyler hamilton, two of his former teammates, i think it lasted almost two years. so i don't think this is going to end anytime soon. >> yeah. appreciate you calling in with this. thank you very much, julia. >> thank you. day three in the jerry sandusky trial. again, incredibly disturbing allegations being levelled in court today. three more alleged victims took the stand. there's a disturbing portrait emerging in their story of an alleged sexual predator who had the perfect setup to groom vulnerable young boys for abuse. over and over, the same key details stand out. underprivileged boys in sandusky's second mile camps says they were given tickets to football games. each alleged unwanted advances came with a touch of the leg in car rides. they say they were too ashamed to talk but they wanted to keep going to football games. today, one witness accused
sandusky of threatening his family if he ever spoke out. sandusky said he's innocent of the charges. i want to go to jason carroll at the courthouse with more. today we're hearing new information that sandusky may have actually threatened one of the victims. >> and that's what we're hearing, anderson, from the young man identified as victim number 10. he said in 1998, jerry sandusky sexually assaulted him in the sandusky home in the basement. saying he forced him to perform oral sex on him. he said, quote, he told me if i told on him he would never see my family again. he apologized for saying that. he said that he didn't mean it and that he loved me. another reason why this young man is interesting, the defense is saying a lot of these young men are trying to come forward and cash in in some way hiring attorneys to pursue some sort of a civil case. this is one young man who has not hired a private attorney. he said he is coming forward
because he said, quote, it was at right thing to do. >> perhaps the most emotional testimony came from victim number five who said sandusky assaulted him in the shower. >> he said this happened when he was 12 or 13 years old. it was one of the most emotional moments of the day without a question. he described it this way. once he was in the shower, he actually tried to move away from jerry sandusky but could not get away telling the court, i crept forward a little more as he did. i felt his body on my back. i kept lurching forward but i didn't have anywhere to go and i felt his arm move forward and he touched my genitalia. i was sitting there in the court, right to my left, just a few feet away, this young man, his mother and father were sitting next to me. as he cried on the witness stand, they began crying as well. it was an incredibly emotional
moment, an impactful moment on the court, as well. >> i'm joined by thomas klein, an attorney for the alleged victim number five accuser number five. thomas, your client gave emotional testimonies. we're hear that he's getting miked up on camera. got to change locations between him and jason. as jason said, this was some of the most emotional testimony coming today from alleged victim number five. thomas, are you there? >> yes, i am. your client gave emotional testimony today. >> how is he holding up after testifying? >> he was relief relieved and looking forward to kissing his girlfriend brittany when he gets home. my client is a remarkable young man and i saw in him the face of a victim of sexual abuse and what it does and how it impacts
on a young man even as he's an adult. >> i'm trying to imagine what it's like testifying in front of the person you're accusing. in this case jerry sandusky. did you watch sandusky today? how did your client deal with being face to face with sandusky? it was a remarkable exchange. i talked to my client. just about an hour ago and he told me how sandusky stared at him. sandusky when they were having an early discussion in the testimony about the fact that my client comes from a polish family and sandusky spoke polish and the polish wasn't very good that sandusky spoke how sandusky was looking at him as though almost in an adoring and to my eyes odd fashion. my client told me that he actually stared at him, sandusky stared at him during the entire
testimony, almost as though my client felt that he wanted to make him uncomfortable. >> a number of the accusers have had some pretty tough cross-examination by the defense. that didn't happen from your client. why do you think? >> i believe that my client's testimony was bullet proof. there was nothing to cross-examination him on. the usual routine of mr. sandusky's defense council, which includes drugs and crime and the like, there's nothing here. i represent a young man who is a productive, solid citizen with a wonderful, loving family. his father and mother were in the second row center. he glazed at his mother and father. his family, two brothers flew all the way in from california. he has a wonderful girlfriend. and there wasn't anything to pick at.
the only issue that was raised was in the investigation the investigators somehow got the date wrong and he was asked a question or two about it. but it was very clear that he was at second mile at a certain period of time and he saw mr. sandusky in 2001. i thought anderson, one of the most interesting things that came out of the back-to-back testimony that we've seen is that mike mcqueary testified that in february of 2001 he saw this incident and looked into the face of jerry sandusky. and here we have a similar incident in the shower some few months later from february to august. and i would say that conduct is down right brazen. >> do you think -- the dpvs has raised this idea that jerry sandusky has some sort of disorder, hysterical disorder. do you buy that? do you think this has any bearing on that? >> i believe that the conduct is classic predatory conduct.
as i've said in many interviews today, i've never seen a man who liked to shower with so many young boys. the fact of the matter is the pattern here is classic predatory. he groomed the young men. he bought them gifts, he took them to games. he got them tickets. he took them away. he got them in his car. and then what he did was he put his hand on each one's knee basically and found an opportunity wherever it existed, whether it be in the shower or the basement of his own home while his wife was present. i don't believe that they will sell to this jury that he hasn't progressed beyond his teenage years and it's some kind of disorder. i don't see it happening. >> a histrionic disorder, not hysteria. thomas klein, i appreciate you -- >> yeah, i've heard -- sure, my pleasure, anderson. >> go ahead. you were saying you've heard?
>> no, i'm sorry. i've heard various incapacity defenses that have been vetted, both publicly and otherwise, and they include that he hasn't gone beyond his teenage years, that he has this impulsive disorder. the fact of the matter is you have a man that was running the defense for one of the most successful football teams in the country for decades. and he was a man who had premeditated plotted conduct. not some kind of impulsive or hysterical disorder. that's my view of it. >> the other thing i don't get is the defense has sort of alleged that this was part of a team culture and this is how sandusky grew up, the generation he's from. i was on a team. i've never heard of any coach showering with a player, let alone with a child. but again, it's up to the jury. thomas klein, appreciate you being with us. thank you. follow us on facebook, on twitter right now. tweet us about this. what do you think? do you think there's any chance that jerry sandusky is not going
to be convicted of these charges. let us know what you think. if you look at the animals being so well taken care of the montreal spca, you think it's a charity in solid shape. well the charity says it's in serious debt to a direct mail company in the u.s. direct mail company with ties to other charities that we've been investigating. this is really a story about charities and where does the money go?
yet another troubling case of a charity asking you to open your wallets for a good cause, but where the money actually -- where it actually goes is a completely different story. over the past couple of weeks, we've been taking a hard look at some veteran charities. charities for disabled veterans, in particular, that have taken in tens of millions of dollars
in donations, but used almost none of it to directly help those veterans. cnn's drew griffin has been looking at one of those charities for years now. they've raised nearly $56 million in the past three years. $56 million. and not one time that we've found has actually gone directly to help disabled veterans. now, you may remember drew's attempts to talk to the president of that group. it's been met with resistance to say the least. the reporting has gotten a lot of attention. many of you have tweeted about this. you've e-mailed us about this story. it's also gotten the attention of the senate finance committee. which has launched an investigation into the dvnf. drew will join us shortly with an update on that investigation. the million dollar question is if the dvnf isn't spending your donations on directly helping veterans, where is all of that money going? >> as far as we can tell, the 10th floor of this manhattan
office building to a company called quadriga arts, a company that specializes in fund raising. and as far as we can tell, they know a lot about fundraising for itself. >> so quadriga art is this company that basically gets paid to build mailing lists for groups like the dvnf. that's where the money trail took drew. following the trail was one thing, but getting answers at the end of it was another thing entirely. >> it's drew griffin. >> she is not here. >> i'm trying to reach mr. schulov. oh, he's not in? >> in the course of investigating the dvnf, drew uncovered yet another veterans charity called the national veterans foundation that takes donations but uses a small percentage to help veterans. the connection you ask? well, both veterans charities use that same fundraising company, quadriga art.
and now he's uncovered another charity. a group that's supposed to help animals that has another money connection to that same direct mail organization quadriga art. here's drew. >> reporter: the needs of the local spca was great. abandoned dogs and cats need the help and the money to help them was running out. so in 2005, what seemed like a great opportunity came knocking. a private fundraising company proposed a major expansion. montreal's spca would become the canadian spca and quadriga art would send fundraising mailers across all of canada. the deal was done and the money started rolling in. but there was a big problem. practically every dollar that came in according to montreal's spca's new executive director was going into the coffers of quadriga art.
the fund raising bills so large that after three years, the montreal spca, despite receiving $13 million in donations was in the hole more than $4.5 million. how do you get in debt to a fundraiser? >> by incurring expenses and not having a plan for getting out of it. it was not a smart decision on the spca's part. and we let quadriga create strategy for us. >> the strategy was simple. quadriga art would send out pleas for money on behalf of this shelter, include tote bags and other gifts made by a chinese factory but the cost far exceeded the donations and the spca was locked into this contract for seven years. the fundraising operation was so upside down for the montreal spca that they actually still owe quadriga art nearly $2 million. and quadriga has even taken out a lein on this animal shelter.
that's a lot of money. >> but it's a lot less than the $4 million we owed them seven years ago. >> reporter: quadriga art has refused interviews to explain its unique process for raising money. a public relations firm explained that the cost of beginning and raising funds required long-term strategy s they developed donor list, creating databases that would eventually pay off. a spokesman told us, quote, this has been a proven model for 50 years, despite being criticized by some charity watch groups. but for the montreal spca, the results have been a disaster. will you sign with them again? >> probably not. >> reporter: that is hardly the end of this story. my name is drew griffin.
i'm with cnn. meet pierre barnadi, emerges as the founder of a new u.s.-based charity. spca international. from his home in montreal in a rarely staffed office in new york, barnadi and quadriga art have designed a new charity, to tug on the heart strings with its signature program called baghdad pups. the stated goal -- reuniting vets and their war pets. but you're going to be stunned to find out just how this operation works. >> this is so -- and once we start scratching the surface of this thing, drew, it just gets deeper and deeper and more shocking. so many of these charities where hardly any of the money goes to charity. all seem to have this one private fundraiser taking in all the money and that's quadriga art right here in new york. i had never heard about them. >> me neither but they are huge. a private company that simply will not speak to us. won't even return phone calls
except to a public relations firm. but it is this firm that's doing all the collecting and as far as we can tell, collecting millions and millions of dollars in donated money that the actual donors intend to be going in this case to animals. in so many other cases, veterans and disabled veterans. >> if i ran a charity and somebody was doing a report that raised questions about where the money was going and everything was on the up and up, i would open the books and do interviews. the fact that nobody will talk to you about this stuff i find amazing. one of the charities is this national veterans foundation, dvnf. they filed their financial forms for last year. they raised $56 million in three years of disabled vets. not a dime has actually gone to help vets. has it gotten any better? >> no. according to the just filed 2011 documents, dvnf took in $29 million.
that's how much americans sent to this group. as far as we can tell, most of the money went to quadriga art and its affiliates. the charity is telling us, they're in debt now to quadriga, $15.5 million. so things seem to be getting worse, not better. >> and this is the group that the senate finance committee has opened an investigation into? >> yes. the senate finance committee says the staffers are now going through the very documents that we have, also documents that are sent in by the dvnf, they're going to try to determine exactly what's going on here. they're just starting to look at this with we don't have anything to report other than they're beginning their investigation. >> i appreciate your reporting. we're going to have another part of this come up tomorrow. we're going to look into this other charity which is allegedly helping animals, pets and veterans, but it doesn't seem to be. i don't understand how people sleep at night who are raising money allegedly for veterans or homeless animals and the money is not going to where they're raising money. i do not get that.
raw politics tonight. is president obama making a campaign mistake by talking about signs that the economy is improving. one democratic voice says yes. on "good morning america," today, james carville said voters want to be reassured the president understands how bad things are for the middle class and he has a plan to deal with it. >> i'm worried when the white house and the campaign talks about the progress being made, people take that as a signal that things are fine and people don't believe that.
>> according to a poll out today among independent voter, only 38% said they have a favorable view for the president's plan for the economy. 54% unfavorable. mitt romney's economic plans don't fare much better. 35% favorable, 47% unfavorable. we're speaking with paul begala and gloria borjer. so paul, there's no denying the president's campaign had a tough stretch lately. what did james carville have to say, the message is off. >> he's been by best friend for 30 years now. and i advise the pro obama super pac. so i have a dog in this hunt. at the same time, i think james has a point. elections are always about the future and not the past. it's very difficult for incumbents to understand. most for other jobs when you're up for renewal you say hey, i did a good job. i sold this many widgets or hit this many home runs. hire me back. for the presidency, it's always about the future.
when you're in a recession, they're not interested in handing out gold stars. i know the president has actually stopped the bush depression. i know he's created 4.3 million private sector jobs. if you go out there and say that to the 25 million americans who are hurting and the 100 million americans who are worried, you're not going to be well received. so i think the president has to make this much more about the and much more of a contrast future and what he will couch and describe for an elitist economy. >> it's interesting hearing paul said for an incumbent president it's about the future, not about the past and maybe that goes against a president's instincts. don't tell people the economy is getting better, they won't believe you. but if people don't think things are getting better, can the president be re-elected? >> i think it's really hard for any president to get re-elected in a terrible economy. i think the problem about frying to characterize the economy or talk about the economy is that
the economy speaks for itself. you know how you feel around the dinner table, in your household, what's happening in your savings account, what's happening in your bank account and your children and how they're feeling. so you can't really characterize the economy for other people. now, what president obama can do and what he's been trying to do is sort of say look, here was the context in which i came to the presidency. we were in a ditch, i'm trying to get you out of it. and the democrats i was talking to today are saying that's fine, but a, you can't sound like you're whining when you're president of the united states because that's not what people expect from a leader. b, at some point, you have to come up with a large plan, particularly if the economy is not doing well, people want to see some bold leadership from the president. >> paul, talking about this future-past dynamic. i know you've done research on what kind of ads work about attacking mitt romney on his past record. do attacks on romney's past
work? do attacks on president obama's past work? >> well, yeah, i have and again, i advise the pac that's running ads attacking romney. here's why they're working. there are abc news focus groups said they're working. walmart groups, two national polls show they're working. here's why. mitt romney is largely a blank slate oddly. he's known to information elites but to voters they know he is. they know he's rich. if you say he got rich by laying people off -- in part by laying people off, taking away their pensions and health care, boy, they don't like that. and the president is not a blank slate. he's a jackson pollack painting. it's a pretty formed portrait. people like me like him. half the country doesn't. that's his strength and his weakness. romney, though, the marginal relative utility of attacking romney is much higher than attacking barack obama.
>> when the president goes on the attack or the pac goes on the attack, the problem for the president is that people like him and his likability is one of the things about him that people say okay, i'll vote for this guy because i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt and i like him a lot. if you start to go negative, you can lose that. and romney is not as likable as barack obama at least according to the polls. the president as a problem because he doesn't want to give up his advantage on that front. >> for you, it's a lot less about the president, even though the advice would be even though you're not allowed to give advice, but hypothetically, it would be don't talk about the past or the bumps in the road. feel your pain. the president can feel your pain? it is. this whole thing is about empathy. so this is legal. he's the child of a single mom who had to struggle.
even sometimes had to go on food stamps to make ends meet. he got scholarships, worked his rear end off, and look where he is today. i've been where you've been. he should tell them. and i can help you get to where you want to go. the other guy, however, as even the republicans said looks like the guy who just laid your daddy off. >> you know, i think the problem for both of these campaigns is the american public views both of these candidates as elites in one way or the other. one may be the financial elite, the other may be an academic elite, right? but they're both not regarded as somebody who really feels your pain. >> interesting. thanks very much. coming up, a former peace corps volunteer and successful realtor. right now, this man is locked up inside one of nicaragua's most dangerous prisons. he was sentenced without really any evidence we can find against him. how can this be? i'll interview jason in prison next. meineke's personal pricing on brakes.
crime and punishment tonight. a rare interview with an american stuck inside a nicaraguan prison. he was convicted even though there was no evidence to back up the charges. 43 members of congress joined the fight to free him urging them to release him. the group includes a washington state congressman who says this qualifies as kidnapping. his family warns time could be running out for him to leave prison alive. before by interview with jason, i want you to take a look at how he landed in this situation. >> it's one of the most dangerous prisons in the world. an american who just about everyone says is innocent has been here for 18 months, serving a sentence of 22 years.
his name is jason puracal. he's living a nightmare. >> explain what this has been like for you. >> it's hard to put into words. it's very tough. >> he grew up in washington state. he wanted to be a svete narn. veterinarian and after graduating he joined the peace corps hoping to work with exotic animals around the world. in 2002, he was stationed in nicaragua. his sister said he was struck with the beauty of the country. >> he absolutely loved it. he decided to stay there. >> reporter: he met and married a local nicaraguan and moved to a beach town. they have a son. puracal began working in a real estate office. he began running the office. in 2007, he was even featured on hgtv's "house hunters international."
>> approximately two hours from the capital. >> life was good. he was raising his son in the community he says he loved and finding success with his company. but everything changed on november 11, 2010. on that afternoon, police burst into his home, confiscated his files and took him away. >> i heard about the arrest from my mom. she had flown down there to visit jason and was staying at the house. she called me on a friday morning and said the police have taken your brother and they won't tell us where he is or what's happened. and that's what set all of this off. it was panic on all accounts. >> he was accused of using his real estate business as a money laundering front for an international drug trafficking ring. he was arrested along with 10 other drug traffickers. his family thought it was all a big mistake. >> there's absolutely no
evidence that jason committed any of the crimes with which he is charged. i am an attorney and i've read through the entire case file and i've fought this every single day for the last 18 months. but more than that, i'm jason's sister and i know my brother. i know that he's absolutely 100% innocent. >> puracal was hopeful this could be revolved quickly. his lawyers say the authorities weren't able to provide any evidence linking him to a drug trafficking ring. there was no drugs found in his home or office, no evidence of money laundering. steve moore has studied this case on its own and says jason puracal could have been targeted by authorities because he's a wealthy american. >> they claim head had all this money in bank accounts. okay, fine. but jason called witnesses to show this is my money. i'm a witness, that's my money in an escrow account to buy this property. the judge declared that inadmissible. >> the prosecution was also unable to prove that money
changed hands between puracal and the other 10 traffickers who told the judge they never even met jason. >> the prosecutor and the investigators are saying there's money laundering going on here. this guy did it. you're going to have to take our word for it. >> but despite the lack of evidence, or any evidence according to his lawyers, jason puracal was still found guilty and sentenced to 22 years. >> they're accusing me of international drug trafficking without any drugs. money laundering without any money. organized crime with other 10 people charged in this case and i don't know any of the other 10. >> he's filed an appeal but that has gone nowhere. cnn has tried to comment nicaragua authorities the last few months. we've only been promised comments, but so far we've not been given any answers on the case. time is critical for puracal whose health is said to be deteriorating under the harsh conditions of the prison. >> jason will not survive 22
years in that prison. there's not enough food. there's no potable water, no medical care. the last time i visited jason, he had lost 40 pounds. >> puracal spent his birthday in prison. despite everything, he remains hopeful his conviction can be overturned and he can be reunited with his family as a free man. tonight, that freedom seems as elusive as ever. it's not easy to contact puracal. we managed to reach him on the phone from inside the prison. >> what is the prison like. we're showing videos of the prison where you are right now. what are the conditions like? >> it's basically a hell hole. there's concrete cells that are overcrowded. i'm in a cell with anywhere from 9 to 12 people in 12 by 15 sfoot cell. it's hot, dirty, dusty.
a lot of insects. >> more of my interview with jason puracal tomorrow. we're running a little short on time tonight. german police need your help tonight. they released a photo, this photo of a boy, a teenager who showed up at the berlin city, claiming to have lived in a forest for five years and doesn't know who he is. police are just now releasing this picture to try and understand who this teenager is. more on the mystery coming up.
anderson will be back in a moment. according to cnn affiliate khou, a texas jury has convicted a man of murdering his neighbor in a fight over loud music. the jury rejected the claim the shooting was justified under the same stand your ground law. 4:00 he claims the killing was in self defense. he faces up to life in prison during sentencing. firefighters say the wild fire in colorado is only about 10% contained. the flames have scorched more than 46,000 acres killing one person and destroying at least 100 buildings. syrian government forces have regained control of the town after eight days of intense fighting against opposition forces. attacks continue elsewhere. an opposition group says 77 people were killed today in syria including 23 in homs province. and german police have released a photo of a boy who claimed he lived for five years in the woods. they're hoping someone will id him.
time for the "ridiculist." tonight we're adds the miss usa controversy. that's right, a new development, a new wrinkle in the greatest scandal you forgot existed. if you haven't been following this story, shame on you. let me remind you how we got here. ms. rhode island won the ms. usa pageant, which was broadcast on nbc earlier this month. the very next day, another contestant miss pennsylvania claimed yet another contestant told her that she'd seen a predetermined list of the names of the women who later went on
to be finalists. are you following this? yeah, me neither frankly. anyway, that other contestant, miss florida said she was joking about the list. but miss pennsylvania, she's not buying it. >> i have many years of psychological training. i know when someone is telling a joke, when someone is scared and when someone is serious. in my opinion her body language was very serious and she looked a little scared because she had just seen something that would potentially drastically change the reputation of the miss universe organization. is a big deal. >> she's had years of psychological training. how could a pageant owned by this man possibly be controversial? officials deny the allegations and say miss pennsylvania is using this so-called list scandal to cover up her real problem with the pageant, the fact it allows transgender contestants. by the way, she dodged that question on the "today" show. mr. trump says ms. pennsylvania is suffering from loser's remorse. >> i think she lost and she's
angry about losing. and frankly, in my opinion i saw her for barely a second. she didn't deserve to be in the top 15. >> trump and pageant officials say they're going to take legal action against miss pennsylvania. just to be clear, i for one am shocked that there is a controversy. the aftermath of beauty pageants is always so calm and so pleasant. >> larry, you're being inappropriate. you really are. i'm not going to talk about -- >> what? i'm asking a question. >> it's confidential and you're being inappropriate. >> all right, inappropriate king live continues. >> did you hear the question, carrie? did you hear the question? >> no, i can't hear you. >> you took the mike off. we can hear you. >> if you put the mike on, we can hear you. >> i think you're being extremely inappropriate right now and i'm about to have leave your show. >> poor larry, he did his best that night.